If your child looks “fine” at school but falls apart at home, melts down over everyday expectations (homework, transitions, getting out the door), or is sliding into school refusal, this episode will help you make sense of what might be going on, especially when autism, AuDHD, and anxiety are part of the picture. On this episode of The ADHD Kids Can Thrive Podcast, host Kate Brownfield sits down with Diane Gould, founder of PDA North America and co-author of Navigating PDA in America, for a grounded, parent-friendly conversation about Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) (often reframed as a Pervasive Drive for Autonomy). Diane explains why PDA is best understood through a nervous system lens (not “defiance”), why many traditional behavior plans can backfire, and what actually helps kids who experience everyday demands as a threat response. This episode is especially helpful if you’ve heard “PDA” mentioned in an evaluation, therapy, or online, and you’re trying to understand what’s real, what’s misunderstood, and what supports are most effective at home and at school. In this episode, we cover: What PDA is and how the definition has evolved (and why there’s still debate) Why PDA often overlaps with autism and/or ADHD and why it’s frequently missed or mislabeled PDA vs. ODD: how “oppositional” behavior can look similar on the surface but be driven by something very different underneath The common pattern of masking at school and meltdowns or shutdowns at home, and why parents are often told, “They’re an angel here.” Why school refusal is so common for PDA kids (and what Diane is seeing in families today) Why rewards, consequences, sticker charts, strict routines, and compliance-based strategies often don’t work and what to try instead The role of relationship, trust, and co-regulation, especially as kids get older and school support gets more fragmented Practical ways parents can reduce stress, protect the nervous system, and support learning without crushing autonomy What PDA can look like in adulthood and why support systems and interdependence matter Resources mentioned PDA North America (website): https://pdanorthamerica.org/ Diane Gould: https://dianegouldtherapy.com/ Book: Navigating PDA in America (Diane Gould & Ruth Fidler): Amazon Link Kate / ADHD Kids Can Thrive: https://adhdkidscanthrive.com/ Enjoyed this episode? Follow, rate, and share with a parent who needs a clearer, calmer framework for PDA, demand avoidance, school refusal, autonomy needs, and nervous system support.