Grab a cup of tea and join us for a bonus episode on tarot. We learn about the cards from their patrician origins to the present day, when tarot is being used to subvert limiting tropes of gender and sexuality. A tarot deck begs some questions: what makes something art? And who decides? Some of the answers may surprise you. We meet the artists behind a queer, Southern, collective tarot deck, and hear from an educator at The Met how tarot can be a source of both beauty and resistance. Plus: Camille Dungy, host and tarot skeptic, gets a slightly apocalyptic reading from a fellow poet. Producers Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan take us behind the scenes: probing something that's not quite a material, but whose story is too dynamic not to share. Guests: Suhaly Bautista-Carolina, creator of Moon Mother Apothecary and senior managing educator of audience development, Education, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Marco Leona, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Allison Rudnick, associate curator, Drawings and Prints, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Alexander Chee, poet, author, and professor of English and creative writing, Dartmouth College Camille Dungy, poet and host of Immaterial Slow Holler Tarot Artists: JB Brager Corina Dross Miranda Javid Nic Jenkins Objects mentioned in this episode: Niki de Saint-Phalle (American, 1930–2004). Niki de Saint Phalle tarot cards, 2002. 22 cards: illustrations; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm); Width: 3 1/8 in. (8 cm) + 1 booklet (48 unnumbered pages; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm)). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (N6853.S255 S25 2002) For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan. Special thanks to Holly Phillips, Jessica Ranne-Cardona, Maria Schurr, E. Henderson, and Rachel Pollack.