Is reality fully captured by science or are we missing its most essential dimension? In this dialogue, John Vervaeke joins William Desmond and Guy Sengstock to explore the philosophical foundations of meaning, being, and knowing. Their exchange reveals a shared concern that modern frameworks have narrowed our understanding of reality by excluding participatory and relational dimensions. Desmond's "between" metaphysics and Vervaeke's relevance realization converge to illuminate how meaning arises through engagement rather than detached observation. The discussion moves through cognitive science, phenomenology, and ontology while confronting the existential weight of the meaning crisis. Nihilism is reframed not as a final collapse, but as a transitional space that may allow for a renewed encounter with the sacred and the real. The result is a vision of reality that is deeper, more participatory, and more demanding than modern assumptions allow. William Desmond is a philosopher known for his work on the "between" and the nature of being and meaning. His writing integrates Greek philosophy, Christian thought, and Eastern traditions. Guy Sengstock is the co founder of Circling and founder of The Circling Institute. His work focuses on relational awareness and the transformative power of dialogue. Guest Links William Desmond: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Desmond_(philosopher) Guy Sengstock: https://x.com/guystocks/status/1936455794452774946 Support the Lectern and join a growing community of wisdom seekers https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke Explore practices and programs through Awaken to Meaning https://awakentomeaning.com/ 00:00 Welcome to the Lectern 02:00 William Desmond's philosophical journey 08:00 Guy Sengstock and circling practice 13:00 Relevance realization and cognition 18:00 What is relevance 25:00 Being, meaning, and dialogue 41:00 Projection and philosophical pilgrimage 51:00 Daoist perspectives 52:00 Sacred pilgrimage in ancient Greece 54:09 Going away as a way of going home 54:30 Wayfaring and cognition 56:00 Reformation and pilgrimage 56:30 Pilgrimage versus tourism 57:30 The meaning crisis and nihilism 01:01:30 Nihilism as creative opening 01:07:00 Zen and nothingness 01:26:00 Vertical and horizontal nihilism Follow John Vervaeke https://johnvervaeke.com/ https://twitter.com/vervaeke_john https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke