What if the question is not simply whether life has meaning, but how our capacity for meaning develops? In this Lectern conversation, Ethan Hsieh speaks with Brendan Graham Dempsey about his upcoming course, Matters Over Time: How the Sacred and Significant Evolve in Self and Society. Brendan introduces the course through his own experience of a meaning crisis, which led him to ask how meaning-making frames are constructed, lost, reconstructed, and developed. The conversation begins at the personal level. Brendan explains why studying meaning-making can help us understand our own minds, other people's worlds, and the recurring patterns by which human beings organize significance. Ethan presses him from two sides: the person who feels life is already meaningful enough, and the person who has searched for meaning for years without finding it. Brendan's answer is careful: the course is not meant to force existential confrontation, but to invite a wider and deeper participation in reality. From there, the discussion turns toward relativism, nihilism, and pluralism. Brendan argues that once an inherited worldview breaks open, people often either double down on a single frame or collapse into the idea that all meaning is merely private. His work tries to find an order beyond that pluralistic chaos by looking at developmental patterns in meaning-making across individual lives, cultures, and history. The final movement of the conversation brings the course into its largest register: the sacred. Brendan frames meaning as a kind of knowledge that links us to reality in a viability-enhancing way, and he interprets the sacred as that which deepens flourishing, widens participation, and draws us into awe, wonder, and transformation. The course becomes not only a theory of meaning, but an invitation to see ourselves as participants in a much larger learning process. Key Insights Meaning-making can be studied as a developmental process rather than treated as a private feeling or arbitrary construction. Brendan's work is shaped by his own meaning crisis and by John Vervaeke's account of the cultural meaning crisis. Complexification does not mean abandoning what already matters; it means situating it within a wider and deeper horizon. Ethical growth requires widening meaning beyond the self and becoming more responsive to other people, cultures, and perspectives. Faith Development Theory and interview-based research offer ways to study how people answer questions about purpose and significance. Relativism can be an advance beyond rigid absolutism, but it can also become chaotic and disorienting. The course links individual development to cultural evolution and the history of human meaning-making. Brendan resists both triumphalist progress stories and simple decline stories. The sacred is presented as evolving through human history as our relationship to ultimate concern becomes more complex. The course is meant to be dialogical and exploratory, not a closed system. Timestamps 00:00 Welcome and introduction 01:30 Brendan's background and research focus 02:00 Personal meaning crisis and meaning-making 03:30 John Vervaeke's influence 04:00 Course frame: sacred and significant in self and society 06:00 Why study meaning if life already feels fine? 08:20 Patterns and structures in meaning-making 09:30 Learning as meta-meaningful 11:40 Does growth threaten existing meaning? 12:30 Expanding the meaning horizon 13:20 Ethical widening beyond the self 14:40 Widening and deepening 17:30 Searching for meaning and fearing interior work 18:40 Growth, effort, and challenge 21:10 Comfort, hollowness, and the "so what?" question 22:40 How do I know my life is meaningful? 23:00 Faith Development Theory and lived interview data 24:50 Different answers to meaning 28:40 Is meaning merely private? 29:20 Absolutism, worldviews, and the bursting of the bubble 32:30 Relativism and pluralistic chaos 34:10 Ordering different meaning-making frames 36:40 Recovering from nihilism 39:40 Understanding our 2026 epoch 40:50 Individual meaning and cultural evolution 41:40 Similar patterns across life and history 44:00 The cosmic scale of meaning-making 46:20 Already connected to something larger 48:10 From abstract framework to embodied worldview 50:20 The cosmic fluke story 52:40 Human meaning-making and cosmic complexification 54:00 Responsibility and the call toward wisdom 57:40 Meaning-making and the sacred 59:40 The sacred, viability, and flourishing 01:00:30 Awe, wonder, and reality beyond our current frame 01:02:10 Sacred symbols and tradition 01:03:10 Updating the sacred through prophets and sages 01:04:00 From tribe to common humanity 01:05:40 The sacred as evolving 01:06:10 God and cultural evolution 01:09:30 The course as contemplation 01:10:20 Seeing oneself as part of the process 01:12:30 Re-homing modern people in relation to the sacred 01:14:40 Participating in a new movement of the sacred 01:18:10 Epistemic humility and dialogos 01:20:20 Closing Resources Matters Over Time: How the Sacred and Significant Evolve in Self and Society Brendan Graham Dempsey Institute of Applied Metatheory Sky Meadow Institute John Vervaeke, Awakening from the Meaning Crisis John Vervaeke, Seeing God Again for the First Time James Fowler, Faith Development Theory Friedrich Nietzsche Joseph Campbell John Thatamanil Meister Eckhart Paul Tillich The Silver Road Follow John Vervaeke: Website: https://johnvervaeke.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ @johnvervaeke/videos X: https://x.com/DrJohnVervaeke Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke