When democracy and civil society are all you’ve known, they are easy to take for granted. However, for some autocracy is not just a word but a way of life. Host Garry Kasparov is joined by Oleksandra Matviichuk. She leads the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022, and has become a leading figure in documenting the occupation of Russia’s war in Ukraine. Having both been born in unfree states, Garry and Oleksandra discuss Russia’s failure to resist Putin’s takeover and Ukraine’s success in fighting back. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener.Garry chairs the Renew Democracy Initiative, publisher of The Next Move. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices